Tren Toxic?

[bigjonny]

Check this out, taken from UK Muscle

start
Written by Jason Meuller.

On The Issue Of Tren Toxicity

Question: I've got the following problem: In many books(including CME, WAR) I can read trenbolone is quite toxic, and you should use low dosages for short periods. I now some people who used Parabolan p***ed blood. BUT I can also read that trenbolone isn't toxic (Bill Roberts: WAR revisited):

"I have found no indication in the scientific literature of particular kidney toxicity with trenbolone. I know of a number of users, at doses of typically 50 mg/day, who have experienced no problems. There are however anecdotal claims of kidney problems. It seems to me, however, that this is occurring only with athletes stacking an incredible amount of drugs, and how the blame can fairly be laid at trenbolone (actually at Parabolan, not trenbolone acetate) is not clear."
In Anabolics 2002 nor William Llewellyn mentioned anything about this toxicity.

I know people using trenbolone acetate 100mg/day for 10weeks without any problem. Just see Nevertoobig's stack: he uses 100mg trenbolone acetate ED.

As I know liver toxicity is in connection with the hexahydrobenzylcarbonate ester and it can be a problem with Parabolan but you don't have to worry if you uses other ester like acetate. So what is the truth? And if I'm right why was finajet so toxic? Just because it was for animals and the oil was not clear enough?

Answer: Trenbolone acetate preperations are toxic to both liver and kidney tissue. The extent is a matter of period of administration for the most part. The reasons are strange but true.

At one time there were the many black-market preperations of Finaplix, FinaJect and others. Most of these contained simple ground Finaplex-H implants...as most are painfully aware. With the process (if you can refer to a caveman approach as a process. The idea of "I have a rock and can make my own AAS" is not a good one) came many foreign non-kidney-friendly materials, some of which were non-soluable. The use of Fina-kits eleminated some of the material concerns due to the use of benzyl alcohol as a solvent to seperate the binders from the AAS in Finaplex-H implants. But there is another concern. The EOD or ED administration of trenbolone acetate preperations also means an accumulation of benzyl alcohol (which is quite high in these kits). Personally I felt that in itself this would not be a huge concern. Unfortunately athlete liver and kidney stress markers consistantly showed in those who utilized the drug. (A little research to discuss)

TR-343
Toxicology and Carcinogenesis Studies of Benzyl Alcohol (CAS No. 100-51-6) in F344/N Rats and B6C3F1 Mice (Gavage Studies)
Chemical Formula: C7H8O - 3D Structure*

Toxicology and carcinogenesis studies of technical-grade benzyl alcohol (99% pure), a textile dye additive, solvent, and food flavoring agent, were conducted by administering the chemical by gavage in corn oil vehicle to groups of F344/N rats and B6C3F1 mice of each sex for 16 days, 13 weeks, or 2 years.

Short-Term Studies:
In 16-day studies, all five male and five female rats and mice dosed with 2,000 mg/kg benzyl alcohol died. Two of five male and 3/5 female rats and 1/5 male and 2/5 female mice dosed with 1,000 mg/kg died. Rats and mice of each sex in the two highest dose groups were lethargic after dosing. Other toxic responses to benzyl alcohol in these dose groups included blood around the mouth and nose, subcutaneous hemorrhages, and blood in the urinary and gastrointestinal tracts of rats and blood in the urinary bladder of mice. Animals administered lower doses of benzyl alcohol (125, 250, or 500 mg/kg) had no compound-related histologic lesions.

Doses selected for the 13-week studies were 0, 50, 100, 200, 400, and 800 mg/kg for rats and mice. Eight of 10 male rats dosed with 800 mg/kg died during weeks 7 and 8; four of these deaths were described as gavage related. Rats dosed with 800 mg/kg exhibited clinical signs indicative of neurotoxicity including staggering, respiratory difficulty, and lethargy. Hemorrhages occurred around the mouth and nose, and there were histologic lesions in the brain, thymus, skeletal muscle, and kidney.

In truth I now feel that it is the accumulative benzyl alcohol that had altered the liver and kidney markers disfavorably far more so than the trenbolone itself. One must remember that the amount of benzyl alcohol in 1ml of most kit preperations is several times higher than an entire 10ml vial of testosterone enanthate.end


So now for my personal question is Tren Ace or Tren Eth more toxic.
I think Eth would be as you have more ester and less actual drug.
Could anyone confirm?

[nibbe828]

Did you read what you posted?

[bm11]

Yeah bro, if you read what you just posted, it would lead you to the conclusion that the toxicity of tren is related to the high amount of ba used in the kits to produce it from pellets. That is entirely independent of the ester used. Very loosely, to answer your question, if you are talking two separate tren preparations, one being acetate at the standard 75mg/ml and the other being enanthate at the standard 250mg/ml, and you wanted to take 350mg/wk of tren, and also assuming that 2% ba is being used in both, then you would be injecting 4.66ml of ace a week or 1.4ml of enanthate a week, and thus injecting 3.33 times the amount of BA when using acetate. However, there have been many guys I know who use a ton of sustanon at 10% ba, and show no signs of liver or kidney stress from that. I personally use around 16ml of gear a week when blasting, always using 2% ba, and I have no problems, even stacking with orals.

It would also be my opinion that the article has many flaws and draws too many conclusions. It narrowed down the kidney stress from tren to the high amount of BA used in kit preparations, however, I have never used kit tren, only homebrew or UG, always from powder, and I still get the dark urine in the middle of the night. It is my personal opinion based on my own research that the dark urine is caused by tren metabolites in the urine, and is not a direct correlation to any sort of kidney problems. However, anecdotally I find that I do tend to urinate much more in the middle of the night when on tren, to the point of being dehydrated, and it is not from increased water consumption, because I tend to drink 3 gallons of water a day year around, whether on tren or not. I have never seen it referenced anywhere online, but I do believe tren may have diuretic properties, which could be another reason for the dark urine in the middle of the night, caused more by dehydration than anything. I don't get any sort of urine darkening during the day.

-BM11

[bigjonny]

Thanks, and yeah I read what I posted. Just wanted second opinion.

Thanks again bm11, your insight is always helpful and interesting

[Data]

In the pharmaceutical industry I do believe that % concentrations are standardized to 1000mg/100mL. Therefore a 10% ba solution has 100mg of ba. A hardcore bodybuilder injecting 10cc's of gear per week at a 10% concentration would therefore be injecting 1000mg of ba per week (a gram of benzyl alcohol).

The intravenous LD50 for rabbits was 53mg/kilogram. In other words when the injection of benzyl alcohol was at a concentration of 53mg/kilogram ... 50% of the rabbits died.

1000mg of benzyl alcohol injected into a 200 kilogram bodybuilder is 5mg/kilogram.

Perhaps the dose of 50mg/kg is enough to kill you but a prolonged exposure at 5mg/kg each week for a 12-20 week cycle is enough to cause some health problems.

The most common symptom of benzyl alcohol toxicity is respiratory problems. But I could be wrong.

Also lets keep in mind that Xanthine brought phenol toxicity to the table with the product testosterone enanthate. I've seen some of the patents of the enanthate ester and I do believe that phenol could be present. If testosterone enanthate shows a presence of phenol I would bet that trenbolone enanthate would as well.

[glock32]

I agree with BM11, I get the dark urine only on tren, not at night but during the day. I used to get it at night but purposely drink a ton of water before bed to stop this.

[Data]

I have no plans on using trenbolone any time soon. However I'd like to see a guy go to a walk in clinic and get a one of those bottles that you urinate in. The next time your urine is a dark color pee a couple or three cc's of urine into the cup and get the doctor to do a urine dipstick test to see if you test positive for RBC's in your urine. Even a trace amount of blood in the urine can turn your urine a faint dark rust color.

[C-man]

Both Deca and Tren are a complete mess for the Endoctrine system

the worst thing however is increase in Prolactin levels that increase risk of Cancer..

[btn2102]

I get dark urine on tren E night or day

[bm11]

Originally Posted by Data

I have no plans on using trenbolone any time soon. However I'd like to see a guy go to a walk in clinic and get a one of those bottles that you urinate in. The next time your urine is a dark color pee a couple or three cc's of urine into the cup and get the doctor to do a urine dipstick test to see if you test positive for RBC's in your urine. Even a trace amount of blood in the urine can turn your urine a faint dark rust color.

Well, right now my urine is yellow and not brown, in the middle of the night as opposed to the clear color it is all day. Dunno bro but there are plenty of guys who run tren that get the dark urine and don't have any related kidney problems, however, due to your past kidney problems I would say that your position is completely understandable.

[hulk6767]

I've been doing tren in doses of 75mg eod for months at a time in the past year and 1/2 ,I've been on it, on and off for almost 7 years. The only probs I've ever had is a high prolactin level once that gave me mild gyno (I was on high doses of it -75 to 150mg every day, a gram of test per week, 400mg of deca/week for 4 months straight)When I came off, it was a disaster. my last blood test had high liver enzymes, but I had just taken a shitload of dbol and winstrol 3 weeks prior.

I would say that Tren can be safe in a sensible dose, for not more than 6 weeks at a time is more than sufficient.

[hulk6767]

food for thought----I've seen a lot of long, technical posts over the past 10 years about homebrew tren being toxic, most coming from suppliers and sources like BD,axio and IP.
The real truth to it is, that the sources (other than powder sources) don't want guys homebrewing tren or anything else for that matter. Hell why would they want you making it for $2 or $3 a cc when they can sell it to you for $13 to $15. "tren is toxic, but ours isn't because we don't use BA" I got news for you guys-BA is used in almost every AAS, if not they are usually using some far worse solvent!

Until I see some science behind the so called "toxic effects" of tren...I'll believe my own body and blood tests.

[bmak]

if by "toxic", you mean the most potent and effective steroid ever, then yes i agree. tren is my favorite and when i could not get anything else i would just run tren 75mg/ed. i am with hulk on this one.

this reminds me of that post about how the rubber stoppers on vials are toxic and eventually cause cancer.

[bm11]

Originally Posted by bmak

this reminds me of that post about how the rubber stoppers on vials are toxic and eventually cause cancer.

Thus justifying the extra cost for amps of course...

[paullyd99]

Hulk makes a very good point, one which I have never understood - Why the hell would anyone with half of a brain buy Tren A from a source? Why? What is the point? Fine, you want longer estered Tren, and you don't have a powder source, so you buy it from a source. But Tren A...wtf? It takes two seconds to get some fina pellets; why would anyone bother with the bullshit of buying tren a from an overseas source?

[taba]

Tren is more harmful to us older BBer's. I used IP's para and got a physical. It showed that I had blood in my urine. The doctor was concern that there might be something wrong with my kidneys. I didn't tell him I was using. I backed off. Took care of myself and cleaned out my system. I and had more tests done a few months later. Everything was back to normal. Only one cycle using para that took me off the charts.

It would be a good idea to get blood work done after a heavy tren cycle to see what is going on with your system. Especially if you use it alot. I just can't believe that everyone saying I didn't get any side affects from tren actually had blood work done after their cycle. Some may have had a work up but I just don't think many of the youngsters ever did. It may be because its out of pocket to do so. You don't feel any different so you may think your OK. Only the test will tell you if you really OK. Once your kidneys are messed up, thats it. There is no turning back.

[bm11]

Originally Posted by paullyd99

Hulk makes a very good point, one which I have never understood - Why the hell would anyone with half of a brain buy Tren A from a source? Why? What is the point? Fine, you want longer estered Tren, and you don't have a powder source, so you buy it from a source. But Tren A...wtf? It takes two seconds to get some fina pellets; why would anyone bother with the bullshit of buying tren a from an overseas source?

Because fina pellet sales are tracked by the goverment, that is one good reason that I can think of. They know you bought it and they know if you raise cattle or not. Chances are they probably won't bust you if they have something better to do, but I had a buddy that was not so lucky, probably because of the small town we live in and the cops having something to prove, but they reported him and he got busted. Cops got a warrant and found a bottle of deca, tried to get him for "intent to distribute" for two carts and one bottle of deca. Still gets promotional offers and catalogs in the mail from this place too, lol.

The other reason that a lot of bro's would rather buy online is because they don't trust themselves to do a conversion. Really, I know a lot of people that do their own homebrew that don't have the mental capability but get by anyway, I feel like its only a matter of time before they fuck up... anyhow, there are lots of reasons why someone would buy from an overseas source rather than converting their own kit tren.

[bigjonny]

Originally Posted by bm11

Because fina pellet sales are tracked by the goverment, that is one good reason that I can think of. They know you bought it and they know if you raise cattle or not. Chances are they probably won't bust you if they have something better to do, but I had a buddy that was not so lucky, probably because of the small town we live in and the cops having something to prove, but they reported him and he got busted. Cops got a warrant and found a bottle of deca, tried to get him for "intent to distribute" for two carts and one bottle of deca. Still gets promotional offers and catalogs in the mail from this place too, lol.

The other reason that a lot of bro's would rather buy online is because they don't trust themselves to do a conversion. Really, I know a lot of people that do their own homebrew that don't have the mental capability but get by anyway, I feel like its only a matter of time before they fuck up... anyhow, there are lots of reasons why someone would buy from an overseas source rather than converting their own kit tren.

True bm11, I have been wanting to make my own shit for a while now but dont have the confidence yet. I guess I should just be patient and keep trying to learn what I can from you guys.