|
|
|
MArk Bell on CNS and overtraining
Damn Halloween if you don't post some interesting vids. I have said many times, I train as a bodybuilder in the gym, but it is not my sport nor my focus in training other athletes. So I have never even heard of this guy... But it raised very conflicting feelings for me.
Just my view, purely on the vid,not knowing anything about the man or what Exact CNS/fluid on your elbow issues he means... What I saw was a great pep talk for a healthy properly scheduled ie. diet/workout.Something my coach or trainer might say when I was in good health on my regular schedule and he wanted my all. Such familiar generalized clichés.
But this whole "there iss no such thing as over training" is bullshit. It's one thing if you are making excuses but you can without doubt over train. If your quads are lagging, why don't you do 500 sets 5 days a week? Bc it's in your head? Should you take up what was it, stamp collecting. Seriously, overtraining is something we see a ton of and when fixed its like night and day. The biz of saying mind over matter with fluid on an athletes joint is nearly negligent, I don't care if this guy is a guru or something.
I think this guys intended message was don't be a pussy, train hard as hell and stop bitching about mental hangups and calling them physical ones. Couldn't agree more. But his rant really diverged into some pretty dumb statements about the nonexistence of over training. Set him up with a ridiculously impossible workout schedule that doesnt allow for adequate recovery time and let him tell me how he feels after a few weeks.
As far as the CNS bit, which he didn't really get into, we know it plays a key role in power. Just gripping the bar extra hard prior to a lift has been shown to prime CNS response and up poundages. But I can't really say regarding CNS fatigue and it's role In over training for certain. First glance I would think it would be possible to a degree... But it's really just the required time for micro tear healing and overall recuperation of body parts that dictates training frequency. Just my opinion.
Overall, nice to watch before you lift to get psyched up... But some of the theories I gotta shake my head at. Mind over matter is great for optimal performance, often disasterous when you have an overstrained or injured athlete. Again, all just IMHO.
Last edited by KhaMD; 08-17-2012 at 01:18 AM.
I agree there is def a line between training hard and training too much and the CNS does wear out and you plateau at least in my experience it does and it sucks then I have to back off 20-30 lb and ramp the weights back up slowly over the course of a month or so .... The russian philosophy works "the best way to get stronger is to increase the frequency of the lift adding small amounts of weight without going to failure will lead to the biggest strength increases" It is true because I have benched on mon with 65% of max wed with 75% and fri with 85% adding small amounts of weight each workout but not going to failure and after 4 weeks my strength was up.... that is because of the increased frequency of the movement my CNS adapted to it and became more efficient. Now more weight also means more strength which in turn makes you bigger and that is super beneficial to bodybuilders as well as any athlete because more strength and more muscle also revs up metabolism and burns more fat making you leaner
Originally Posted by halloween
I agree with that completely, as in that method works... I just couldn't say for sure it's the increased frequency of movements. It very well could be I just don't know. ESP bc you are talking central nervous system, which as anyone who has injured it can tell you, is not that adaptive. If it was synaptic(electrical) relay enhancement of the CNS that would be very cool and worth exploring for CNS regeneration.
But that's the same reason I think it's possibly not CNS. Definite attempts have been made to electrically stimulate served portions of cord in hopes of regeneration... Now regen is different then enhancing functional neurons, but still it does show how unadaptive our CNS can be. Might be, but also might likely to be peripheral nerve improvement. Both cases would see the stated benefits. ThevPNS regenerates, adapts etc. just a more likely candidate for a guess.
But their is no doubt the CNS fatigues. No part of a human body doesn't. Just not sure what's the big player in making that Russian method effective exactly, but what matters is it is for you. Prior to the introduction of dbol, lol, the Russian method to kick our US asses was realizing the obvious... Gear actually improves performance. Our athletic bodies and athletes figured it out too by the 50s but our government denied they did til what, late 80s early 90s. Steroid history is hilarious, so hypocritical and full of bs.
its true it is fucked up there are still people out there that try to say that steroids have no effect of performance .. what a fucking joke these people are.. I would love to see these same motherfuckers take 500mg of test a week and then come back and tell me if it has no effect on performance ...unreal shit my brother!!
Look at people in extreme situations that have demonstrated tremendous surge in strength for example. No training or preparation led to this dramatic increase in strength, it has to be chemical in nature whether its linked to adrenal glands/hormonal/cns or very likely a combination.
Few year ago looked into the central nervous system looking for information on how to enhance it. I was surprised at the lack of progress in research in this arena equally I thought of the potential left untapped too.
The best Powerlifter in the world states one key ingredient in the formula to make you stronger is picking the right weights, or percentages why? I think it relative to the CNS and success in this area is its development or growth which is very slow. This is also verifiable to people who have impaired there CN system, comparable to a child try to uses weights that are far to heavy for them, this individual won't get stronger he will just break down. Gradual increases building up over time can led to a dramatic change over a long period of time. This has a variable as with anything, some people are gifted with a highly powerful/efficient CNS, evidence of why you see 148 lbs people bench 405 & dl over 6.
Stating there is no such thing as overtraining is complete ignorance. Also suggesting to ignore injuries or train through pain shows a thought process that of an 18 year old boy. Such thinking leads many down a road chalked full of failure and injury.
I wouldn't have issue with any of these points. But as you were saying... So many factors besides CNS hyper-activation might be resposible. And almost as a rule it is some combination of them all or some further clouding the issue.
I would say the only place we diverge is the level of confidence we have in the CNSs degree of role. To me, the least convincing evidence is the one most others find most compelling, the opinion of a world champ etc.. Certainly his opinion on how to lift for peak power is beyond question, but in my experience they rarely are right about why... Ultimately they figure things out by trial and error and mega intense effort... And most valuably failure. So I totally respect his thoughts but they don't do much for convincing me its CNS. Like you pointed out too, it's all so interconnected that stimulating the CNS is hitting twenty others factors... Who knows which ones are most key.
I will tell you, and I promised to post a whole section on this, the main factor in really elite powerlifting is high initial ie. genetic 2x type 2 muscle fibers and weight training that builds them without too much conversion to 2a type 2 muscle fibers which are bigger (think bodybuilder) but less explosive then the 2x variety which will convert to 2a if trained purely for aesthetics. This is probably why you see differing build types between elite BBs vs power competitors, differing type 2 fiber ratios and the differing training/eating methods to get these ratios. It is probably behind why some small guys lift amazing weights an some monsters are only moderately strong by comparison.
The example of CNS response in children with impairment is compelling. It makes a good case for the CNS playing a role, but I would still say this only shows the CNS can be strengthened, and if it is deficient/taxed performance can suffer. The great gains shown by the children do not necessarily correlate to a healthy individual. If I give immune enhancers to someone with a depressed immune system, they will see remarkable improvement. If I do the same for a healthy individual, it will not have these same results. Not that I can say my example is better then yours, just pointing out unless you simulate in the group you are postulating... There are always issues of correlation. That's why demographing a drugs clinical trial population can be such a task.
As far as research, it's happening... Banning stem cell research in the US didn't help things for sure. But the brain and CNS remain very mysterious no matter what any neurologist tells you, although most are the first to say that. There are things we just don't have a real handle on scientifically and despite some pretty incredible effort, esp. For regen. in spinal cord injury, it's just slow going. it takes one woman 9 months to make a baby, you can't speed it up by adding more women. Something's are individual miracles, not collective efforts. Sometimes effort is not enough, you need a single eureka moment. Then the floodgates open. It's happened before. I pray that happens every time I see someone who has just had acord injury. It is one of the hardest things to watch.
Last edited by KhaMD; 08-18-2012 at 12:00 PM.
I did a light read on muscle fiber types back a few years ago in that article they addressed the possibility of changing fiber types. Look forward to your write up on the subject.
As for respecting Pro athletes or advanced level trainers there is a limit. An F-bomb filled rant generated from frustration should be self evident. Too many young lifters read this stuff. People say well he's so and so and has a proven successful track record so its fact.
I had a movement that happened to put me in the top 1% and I ruined it. I was near the best at this movement in spite of my training not bc of it. I over trained or whatever it all boils down to RECOVERY and continued abuse of an injury isn't smart training that's going to put anyone on a Podium.
This has given me an insight in such a perspective, thus forming my opinion on elite lifters having an unquestionable in depth knowledge on a subject scientists still have an incomplete understanding. I don't want to get into enhanced training which changes the Recovery concern greatly, but since most people are training naturally subscribing to such a statement will lead to injury much sooner.
Last edited by Blackcat; 08-18-2012 at 02:38 PM.
I see Eddy's statement about a percentage sweet spot having a direct correlation to the CNS.
Congrats and condolences bro. Most people don't grasp how scary it is to put everything into something that can go wrong in a second. One injury, or one second away from success. It takes heart to pursue greatness, sorry it went the way it did. It ends tough more often then in glory which is why it takes guts to do.
And I wasn't saying science knows more than the best power lifter about how to get results, if that's how it sounded. I was saying many great athletes know what works, but are not really more qualified then anyone when getting into the physiological whys, like CNS. In explaining the whys on what is raw science, I would go with the scientist.
For example, for the longest time monks would harden their bones by daily striking stones etc they knew if they tried to break the stone initially they would break there hand but over time their hand would harden and they could indeed break it. A thousand years later, we know repeated strikes cause micro fractures in bone causing calcification during regrowth creating larger stronger bones. I have been involved in and with elite athletics since ODP at age 11 I think. I know firsthand what you are saying, we learn things by doing that others don't by just seeing and reading. That's why I say advice on what to do from someone who has been there is invaluable... But when they start into very complex physiological issues well above their pay grade as to why, I get annoyed a bit bc I know they are just saying what they think about why something works and people take it as fact bc they think it worked. The training did, but the why, not always... And with something as complex as the CNS, which neurologists can't get a handle on... I think ideally a champion power lifter provides the how and others have to figure out the why.
But that has just been my experience with high level performance, you obviously have had experiences too which I totally respect and consider just as valid.
spoken like a true ass-hole with no science to back up his remarks.
Lol guy in vid is great. he really is on a soap box. If I had a nickel for every speech of that general type I have heard pre-meet or game I'd be a rich man. Very few guys can really nail those things. Pretty much ignore most doing my own psyching up... But I have had a few coaches that get you ready to run through a wall. Loved those.
The main difference is those speeches are just motivators, not instructional. No place for cliches and bs in technique and training... Only for motivation.
That vid speech is some unholy union of pseudo-science, cliches and challenges of manhood, all presented as a manifesto on why guys are pussies but also encompassing the complex issue of the CNS. All unsupported by much fact at all, much less convincing evidence, just a lot of confidence and bravado. He may be a damn guru for all i know but he sounded like a high school football coach trying to motivate his team to rob the Starbucks.
Great vid needless to say Halloween.
Last edited by KhaMD; 08-21-2012 at 08:23 PM.
CNS definitely needs a break every month or so of pushing hard
I wouldn't disagree CNS needs breaks... Just my main questions remain: how often, how long etc. might be way more often then once a month, but might only need the days rest between workouts. Or it might need a real break of a few days each month or every two weeks. Totally agree with the theory, have trouble pinning down the best method to achieve it.
It's muddied up by the fact rest is rest of muscles, mind etc... All which will benefit from breaks from time to time also conributing to the benfits of the break, making the CNS role hard to pin down and plan for.
But dude in vid was saying a whole lot more then that. Spent way more time on tangents then on the CNS thing, which I would like more quality info. on. But even if this guy is giving valuable tips they are hard to pick out smothered in the whole cowboy up thing he spends most of his speech on. Just my opinion, but if he has valuable insights, maybe a little less rah rah and smugness and more straight facts, bc I would love to hear them. If such facts are there it's getting lost in the nonsense.
Last edited by KhaMD; 08-22-2012 at 10:22 PM.
Like everyone else here agree there's a fine line between stimulation & overkill.What he states about being prepared- both mentally and physically is unquestionably important.Even the biggest/badass dude punding back tons of cals. per day would surely get burned out squatting/deadlifting at 80% intensity x2/week.Remember it's not only the muscles that nee to recover but it's the C.N.S. that regulates breathing/contractions etc.That being said it seems way too many people are too afraid to overtrain.Don't be afraid to push sets to failure or lift heavier etc. on occasion; you must/should challenge yourself!!
The two best things for your health are humping and pumping.- Arnold Schwarzenegger. Allways grow, grow allways.Life's too short to be small.
to stupid to reply
I believe overtraining is very real and can be hindering but even beneficial in some cases. To train through pain is one thing,,,but through an injury,,,thats just bad advice.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote