Whitey's Guide to Solvents, Compounds, Concentration, and Injection Pain

[Whitey]

Whitey's Guide to Solvents, Compounds, Concentration, and Injection Pain

Basic Information on Commonly-used Solvents:

Benzyl Alcohol (BA):
A fairly potent solvent, whose main function for our purposes is keeping a solution bacteriostatic. It's presence as low as 0.9% is enough to prevent practically all microbial growth in solution.

Benzyl Benzoate (BB):
A co-solvent that serves several functions: helps dissolve the hormone, helps keep it in solution in depot (injection site), and thins the gear so it is easy to draw and inject.

Ethyl Oleate (EO):
A relatively new solvent in the realm of bodybuilding, EO is Oleic Acid with an ethyl ester. EO is an excellent solvent for lipophilic compounds in injectable preparations. Its oxidative stability helps extend the shelf life of compounds, and its low viscosity provides for easy injections.

What causes pain?

Short answer:
A complex interaction between the hormone/ester, the concentration of hormone in solution, and the solvents and ratios of solvents used.

BA, itself:
High enough levels of BA are sufficient to cause pain, per se. What level depends on the individual. 5% - perhaps, but perhaps not; 10% - most likely. I have heard some say that BA does not cause pain at all. I cannot agree. While I haven't yet injected straight BA just to gauge the pain, I did inject straight BA with IGF-1 LR3 back in the day, albeit in very small quantities. Just a few ius had a very decent bite to it. If you don't believe me, grab a syringe, pull a little BA, and go to town. The soreness can be impressive with even just a tiny amount of BA injected.

Hormone Concentration & Crashing in Depot:
There is another problem with BA, though - it is very water soluble. So much so, that once gear is injected, the BA will flee the solution and dissolve into aqueous fluids inside the body. What result? Depends. Let's assume for whatever reason, BA was your only solvent. What happens, most likely, is some of the hormone crashes in the depot, crystallizing in your muscle, causing irritation and near-crippling pain. The severity will depend on the hormone/ester and concentration (which affects the total amount of hormone crashed.) This is where BB, and other, newer solvents such as EO come in. These solvents are better at holding the hormone in solution in depot, thereby preventing a crash.

You can see why a high BA % would correlate with a crash in depot: if BA is being utilized as a solvent, rather than just a bacteriostatic agent, there's a chance there's not enough other solvents to hold all of the hormone once injected and the BA has leeched out. But it may not have been the BA that caused the pain at all, you see?? It was the hormone crashing, and the cause of that was a poor recipe.

Here's a guideline that I don't know 100% to be true, but in my experience, it has been. BA pain (caused by irritation from BA itself) may have a somewhat quicker onset, and fade more quickly than hormone pain. If you inject straight BA, you'll feel it immediately, it will do some tissue damage, and it will be out of the system relatively quickly. In an oil solution, it will not take effect as quickly, as it's still in the oil. As it leeches out, it does some tissue damage and causes some pain. On the other hand, I've never known hormone/ester pain to onset within 24 hours, and often it lingers for 48-72 hours as the crystals continue to irritate muscle fibers as they are slowly broken down. The distinction is a fuzzy line though, and probably will not give a conclusive answer in most cases as to the cause of injection pain.

Bottom line:
I think we tend to blame painful gear on BA too often. I personally do think that 10% BA is definitely high enough to cause a good amount of pain on it's own, though some have sworn it's painless. Others maintain that 4-5% BA will cause injection pain on its own. Just remember how many factors are at play here, and that will help you understand why there are so many conflicting opinions and theories on injection pain and ideal solvent ratios for different compounds and concentrations. I think it would be a mistake to try to finger just one of them as the culprit.

[Whitey]

Any thoughts, or questions, feel free to post up.

Cheers,

[Truth Addict]

So if making test c for example would you suggest using a little bb just to be safe?

[Truth Addict]

Add on to previous question.

Lets say we are making test c 250 mg per ml 3%Ba 20ml at a time how much BB would you suggest. Thanks for the help bro.

[Whitey]

I would absolutely add BB to Cyp. I use a 2%BA/20%BB mix for ALL standard recipies. Even in my EO recipes, I use BB. It is a good solvent and holds much better in the injection site than BA, which means painless injections.

With Cyp, no BB is just asking for a crash, IMO.

[rambone]

great post,
never made cyp but heard of its tendencies to crash and difficulties getting a decent concentration level.

[gronkboy]

Does the bb concentration have to be do high? I usually use only about 7%, but that is when I make test E or EQ.

[McBastard]

good post man.

[Whitey]

Originally Posted by gronkboy

Does the bb concentration have to be do high? I usually use only about 7%, but that is when I make test E or EQ.

No, it doesn't HAVE to be 20%, but through trial and error many, many of us have found 20% to be the optimal level for additional solvent to reduce injection pain and thin the final product.

Test E and EQ are 2 of the easiest compounds to dissolve and hold in solution, so you could use a little less BB if you wanted to. But if you're doing higher concentration brews, use the full 20%. Really, the only reason I wouldn't use 15-20%BB is if you are one of the extremely rare few that have a reaction to the compound.

I do agree with the argument that less is more when it comes to solvents, and that injecting oil is healthier than solvents. But, I'm also a big fan of thin, easily injectable gear which disperses more easily, and the reduced injection pain from keeping the hormone in solution better.

[Whitey]

I would also point out that the human grade standard is 1%BA/20%BB for many preparations. For example, in Depo-Test, there is 0.2ml of BB in each 1.0ml of Depo-Test, or 20%.

From http://www.pfizer.com/pfizer/downloa...tosterone.pdf:

Each mL of the 200 mg/mL solution contains:
Testosterone cypionate .................................................. ................................ 200 mg
Benzyl benzoate .................................................. ............................................ 0.2 mL
Cottonseed oil .................................................. .............................................. 560 mg
Benzyl alcohol (as preservative) .................................................. ................... 9.45 mg

The human grade standard in the US also tends to use BA as a preservative only, not a solvent, so the high BA levels found in some brews (sustanon, etc.) are the exception, and not the rule. FYI: BA is typically measured by wt., not ml - so here 9.45mg BA (Specific gravity: 1.045) = 0.0096ml or just less than 1% of total volume. So, there's really no need for 2% BA, we just do it anyway as an added precaution. I used to brew everything 1/20. Now I throw in an extra 1% just for the sheer hell of it.

Bottom Line: Human Grade Standard is 1%BA and 20%BB.

[doctorflex]

Just wanteed to throw my two cents in here:

I have made the following compounds with only 2% BA AND NO BB:

250 mg Test Decaonate
100 mg Tren Hex caporate
300 mg Deca

Have had all three products tested nd know they are the real deal...the only product that ever crashed on me was my Test Deca (and that was about after 2 months) - just reheated and went back into solution...never crashed again

Solution tends to be "thick"...slightly harder to push but still works well with a 23g

[Whitey]

Yep, you could hold those compounds in just oil at those concentrations.

[BIGAINS]

nice guide...it will be very helpful for a lot of bros. I find 2 and 20 to be ideal as well.

[RacerXHGH]

Got this msds info from OSBB. BA and the cough, metallic taste in your mouth after an injection appear to be related.

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/b1885.htm

[gronkboy]

I just made 100ml of both eq and test e using the ratios of 2% ba and 7% bb. Now, I used the formula to make at 250mgs/ml, but I used 27 grams of raw powder for each solution. I only do 2mls/week of each, and I do 1 ml of test e and 1ml of eq at the same time. The day after my first shot (shot on mondayy nite) my right delt was swollen but had no pain, and after my second shot (last nite) my left delt is sore, but not really swollen. WTF? By having 2 extra grams in my solutions, could this be causing the pain and swelling, and should I add more bb to the solutions? Mind you, I believe that I may have some scar tissue in the right delt, and I bled pretty good out of the left one when I pulled out the neddle. Any advice or suggestions?

[BIGAINS]

If they are thouroughly mixed in the syringe then you shouldn't get swelling. Try a different injection site. Also whatch out for scar tissue I have alot in my shoulders and no matter what I inject into them it seems to lump/swell up a bit. I got a sterile abcess one time from injecting into my shaoulder and I had to drain it so be carefull.

[Whitey]

Originally Posted by gronkboy

I just made 100ml of both eq and test e using the ratios of 2% ba and 7% bb. Now, I used the formula to make at 250mgs/ml, but I used 27 grams of raw powder for each solution. I only do 2mls/week of each, and I do 1 ml of test e and 1ml of eq at the same time. The day after my first shot (shot on mondayy nite) my right delt was swollen but had no pain, and after my second shot (last nite) my left delt is sore, but not really swollen. WTF? By having 2 extra grams in my solutions, could this be causing the pain and swelling, and should I add more bb to the solutions? Mind you, I believe that I may have some scar tissue in the right delt, and I bled pretty good out of the left one when I pulled out the neddle. Any advice or suggestions?

You know my answer will be yes to more BB. If you make a normal concentration at 2/20, you shouldn't ever have this problem, unless it's a filtering/sterility issue.

[Whitey]

Originally Posted by BIGAINS

If they are thouroughly mixed in the syringe then you shouldn't get swelling. Try a different injection site. Also whatch out for scar tissue I have alot in my shoulders and no matter what I inject into them it seems to lump/swell up a bit. I got a sterile abcess one time from injecting into my shaoulder and I had to drain it so be carefull.

I have come to the conclusion also that delt injections generally suck. Most of the abcesses and infections I've ever heard of happen in the delt.

[BIGAINS]

Yea...sometimes you just have to learn the hard way

[gronkboy]

Bigains and Whitey, thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it. I will try to add about 6ml of bb to my solutions (I re-figured out the amouts and adjusted the bb amount to go with 27 grms of raw powder). One more dumb question, how can you tell if you have a sterile abcess? What should I look for? Once again, thanks for the help guys!

[gronkboy]

I believe I understand what to look for (just read the sticky on abcess prevention).